Another post partum abortion - what is the difference between delivering a baby's head, punching a hole in it with surgical scissors, and vacuuming out the brain and this?

Nothing and many who will claim outrage support the "Pro Choice" stand.

When is it OK to kill a baby?  

Pro Choice does not necessarily equal Pro Abortion.  That said, this is a disgusting thing.  Honestly, there seems to be more and more of it happening.  This country is sliding down into a slime of moral corruption.  Anyone ever read what Rome was like before the fall?  

"mnshadow53 said:
Pro Choice does not necessarily equal Pro Abortion"
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What does it equal then?
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"Honestly, there seems to be more and more of it happening."
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Abortion is killing a child - period.  It is legal.  It devalues life and in particular the life of a baby. You can legally kill your baby.

When does "abortion" become OK?

Here I go having to defend my position again.  That's a good thing.  That's what we are here for.   I am NOT pro abortion.  I hate it and would not do it myself.  I do have a right to my opinion; however, I do not have the right to question someone else's motives or hound them or act like a fool over their decisions, especially when it is their legal right to obtain an abortion.  I can and do disagree.  But there but for the grace of God go I.    

"I do have a right to my opinion; however, I do not have the right to question someone else's motives or hound them or act like a fool over their decisions, especially when it is their legal right to obtain an abortion. "

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So you are for abortions being performed.  

Just come out and say it.  

One of the great victories of Planned Parenthood and the press is the ability to rename things.  Pro-Abortion becomes Pro-Choice -  a semi automatic rifle becomes an assault rifle, etc.  The power to change names to seemingly different ones to disguise their true meaning has been used repeatedly in the press and politics.

It is very powerful as it allows and to a degree shames people into take positions they don't agree with.  

Though shalt not take my name in vain - does not only apply to cussing - in the bible a name represented someone's nature and when their nature changed so did their name.  There are many examples.  The nature of God shall not be taken in vain - there are consequences. There are many examples through the Bible.

The opposite is performed by the press and public relations groups - they change the name to attempt to hide the nature.

It just is not palpable to say you are for abortion so people say they are pro choice.

I will say that I was completly against abortion until a friend of mine had to have one.  Due to her situation.....I didnt bother talking her out of it!!!  She herself was agianst it until she was faced with a bad situation that was almost impossible to get out of!!!  Every situation and reason are different.  Shes not a bad person and its not like they go in and just say...."Well im lazy and dont feel like being responsible so I will get rid of it" and its not easy to do physically or emotionally....in fact it was probably the hardest decision she will ever make in her life and def one she will never forget.  Now this situation is different....the girl obviously carried it full term and im sure someone knew she was pregnant.....she could have taken that baby to a hospital and left it where it was safe and someone loving would have been able to adopt it!!!!

And we wonder why ''they'' call us INFIDELS !

"DrWhite said:
And we wonder why ''they'' call us INFIDELS !"
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Because we don't believe in Allah and Mohammed's rantings.  The disgusting nature of their practices and beliefs are largely unspoken by us.  This girl's act was not in Christ's name - their acts are in Allah's name.

I wonder what happened to leaving a baby at a hospital or somewhere to be found alive? I guess this person probably didn't tell anyone they were pregnant and probably hid it well otherwise someone would be looking for the child. It's sad and shows that for all the forward thinking we claim to have in America we are not. Otherwise this person would have felt it was ok to give the baby up or at least put it somewhere safe to be found by someone. I think it comes down to individual morals and what a person can deal with as far as guilt goes.

What a shame the parents of the dead baby can not be stuffed in a barrel until they die.  Eye for eye might bright some justice back into this nasty old world.  Someone above me posted the Roman slide into ruins.  Absolutely that is what we are doing.  Nero fiddled while Rome burned.  When right is wrong and wrong is right.  When life is devalued, sex sin is fun, babies are killed without a thought or very little one, then parents and friends and compete strangers are killed just because, when men raped because they are stressed, or women prey on young men, and Christians are crazy, ad nauseaum. we are needful to look to the One Who did Save us.

East, quit twisting my words.  I said exactly what I meant.  Whether I believe abortion is right or wrong has nothing to do with the legality of it.  You don't like it?  Neither do I; however, it is a woman's LEGAL right to have one.  That DOES NOT make me pro-abortion any more than my not being in favor of gun control makes me pro-murder.  

I am not going to get into an abortion debate with you.  That isn't even the topic here.  I have made my point and I am not going tit for tat with you on this topic, as you seem to LOVE to do with me.

You want to further inflame someone, try it with someone else.

and if you READ my post....I said it was disgusting!  

" I am NOT pro abortion.  I hate it and would not do it myself.  I do have a right to my opinion; however, I do not have the right to question someone else's motives or hound them or act like a fool over their decisions, especially when it is their legal right to obtain an abortion."
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It used to be legal to have slaves, would you feel the same about that?

You are "Pro-Choice" - stand up and say it - we know what "Pro-Choice" means.  It means there is a whole industry dedicated to killing babies. Suction and Curettage, Saline solutions that burn the baby skin off and sear their lungs.

You know I saw the was my 18 week "fetus" (remember that word - never call it a baby - it is a fetus - much more palatable to "abort" a "fetus" than kill a baby)  reacted to the ultrasound and squirm wildly - I wonder how she would have felt with her tender skin and lungs searing from an ultra saline solution. Or being ground up and sucked out.

BTW - just a quick question - just where in the Constitution is the "LEGAL" right to an abortion found?  How did Roe v Wade come under the jurisdiction of the supreme court?  Surely as a member of the government you know where this right came from.

East Memphis, as I said before, and I promise this will be my LAST post on this subject, I have stated what I meant and I cannot and will not allow you to drag me into an abortion debate.  I will leave it with this, if you think it is so terribe, and this isn't just your natural inclination and grandstand and shove your opinions down everyone's throats...just exactly what have you done about it?  Do you council pregnant women about abortion alternatives?  Do you lobby your elected officials to make changes to the law?  I have done these things, and continue to do these things, among others, to facilitate change.  

I do not agree with the law that allows abortion, but simply trying to bully someone or painting horrible mental images does nothing constructive.  

With that, I am done, so spew your anger at someone else.  I will not respond to this issue again.

Well as you drive by a construction site, or watch your dishes get bussed, or watch someone's ;awn getting mowed and out of nowhere this thought creeps in - I remember when Americans were doing those jobs - I wonder why they aren't now?

When the press talks about the coming Social Security Shortfall, or the need to raise taxes, or the rising crime rate ask yourself why?   When people with un- American Values are rising to the point of Presidential Contenders - ask yourself what is going on.

I will say a huge part of it is in our discussion right here.

Modern birth control and easy access to abortion is the cause.  We have aborted and IUD'd away our children and children from other countries are taking their place.  

Roe v Wade was 73 - in 80 when I started doing construction it was a rarity to see a Mexican on a job site.  Americans - white and black were out there - able to make an OK living.  Fast forward 20 years and it is almost all Mexicans and Central Americans and the wages have stagnated at 1990 levels.  But hey you can buy yourself a McMansion cheap.  

Ask yourself why?

Ask yourself are these people paying SSI?

Ask yourself are these people paying income tax?

Ask yourself why when you go to the emergency room it is clogged with people who should be using their health insurance at their docs office?

Ask yourself why now it seems that people kill babies with seemingly no remorse?

We as Americans have aborted away our children and the Reconquista has begun.

When there is NO Social Security for your children and grandchildren after "The Great Generation" spent their own - lived off their children's - and left their Grandchildren a different country with the liberal policies on birth control and abortion don't wonder why.

We aborted out future away.  

A child is not sacred anymore - it is a choice.

"When life is devalued, sex sin is fun, babies are killed without a thought or very little one, then parents and friends and compete strangers are killed just because, when men raped because they are stressed, or women prey on young men, and Christians are crazy, ad nauseaum. we are needful to look to the One Who did Save us."
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Add to that - when our Bill of Rights - which is supposed to protect us from A STATE CHURCH, is used to harass Christians of all faiths, and to destroy public faith in God - We need to look at the judiciary and understand why they hate Christians.

Abortion would not be an issue if sex were only between married men and women for the fun that God intended and to go and multiply, and obedience to Him, not selfishness that it is not convenient.  Even children conceived from rape or born with "defects" or whatever reason might be given for abortion is not a reason for abortion.  Sorry, that is just how it is.  Anything else is justification for sin.  Not my thoughts, not about me, but from the Word of God.  Go argue with Him if it makes you squirm or you don't like it.  Choose Him or choose hell.  Just think, the very person to find the cure for AIDS, the common cold, all heart defects, all cancers, all Parkinsons, all medical problems have probably all been aborted.  Gee what a shame.  We missed out on some great ideas and discoveries and cures.
Everyone on the left side loves to harp on the lifes lost in Iraq, what about all the lives lost from the wombs?

"Everyone on the left side loves to harp on the lifes lost in Iraq, what about all the lives lost from the wombs?"
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They dwarf the number of lives lost in ALL THE WARS OF THE 20th century.

You want to get a good idea of the number of children lost in the wombs - look at the growing illegal Hispanic population - they are the replacements - "doing jobs Americans won't do". (because they are DEAD)

You know when you live ten to a two bedroom house or apartment, don't pay Social Security, Income Taxes, or healthcare - 1990 level wages (which is completely take home to them) is OK.

We are aborting the future of our country away.  

Most abortions are because the baby is "inconvenient".  It may affect a career or lifestyle.  That is what life is worth in America.  God is not mocked.

With one exception, the girls I have known who had abortions rued it.  One told me she would dream that God was sitting at the end of her bed judging her.  

Because of abortion, and modern birth control, the upper and upper middle classes, are not reproducing.  My daughters and their children, will not grow up in the same affluent, peaceful society I was born into.

The really sad thing is I know many couples who have "waited" until their 40's to have a child.  Probably an abortion or two on the way and a lot of birth control.  Suddenly - when it is convenient - they discover they can't have a baby. There used to be white American children to adopt for childless couples.  No more.  You literally have to pay a girl to carry her baby to term.  Big Money. Or go overseas.

And then there is that test - given in the early part of the pregnancy to test for Down's syndrome.  It gives false positives left and right and couples abort.  My brother and his wife got the results and said no way to abortion.  Their baby is fine.  Later his wife was on one of her pregancy boards and the test gave false positives to a huge number of people.  How many babies have died . . . . . .  

Unwanted children my @$$.  There are thousands of families who want these children. It is just inconvenient for the women to go ahead and have the child. Kill "it" (the "fetus" not the baby).

Hispanics are not only doing the jobs Americans won't do because they are dead....they are doing the jobs Americans won't do because many Americans are too lazy or too proud or too bloated with entitlement to actually work for a living.  

We have raised a generation of lazy, slovenly children whose idea of "work" is to have to reach for the remote!  They are too lazy and bored with life to make any kind of effort with much of anything.  They are glued to their televisions and computers and have, for the most part, lost their abilities to even use their imaginations.  They don’t go outside and play, get dirty, make friends….no they isolate themselves and have no sense of community.  

When we were younger, we had causes.  It didn’t matter if it was equal rights, the environment, the war in Viet Nam…..but we cared about things.  What does the youth of America care about now?  We don’t discipline our children, and God help the teacher, neighbor, friend, scout leader or anyone else who DARES to mention that our sweet little darlings are doing ANYTHING wrong.  Then we end up with children so completely lacking in judgment and anger management that they kill their parents for saying no to them or open fire in a school because they feel sad or frustrated.  

Oh yeah…we are doing a great job here in the good old USA!  And we wonder why other countries are surpassing us…why their children are better educated…why the “land of opportunity” no longer attracts those who are at the top of the fields of science and math.  

You can’t blame all of this on abortion.  

"mnshadow53 said:
Hispanics are not only doing the jobs Americans won't do because they are dead....they are doing the jobs Americans won't do because many Americans are too lazy or too proud or too bloated with entitlement to actually work for a living."
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You really need to go out and work construction for a while.  Construction wages have stagnated - dead.  The market is FLOODED with illegals who live in houses turned into dormitories.  The pay no Social Security, No Income Taxes, No Health care and can work and live at a pay rate an American can't survive on.

There are many lazy, illiterate, Americans who won't work and can't read a ruler.  But the whites in this country are aborting and birth controlling their youth away.  When I was born in the early 60's families had four or five kids.  Now three is a big family.  

There have been roughly 45 million taxpayers murdered since Roe v Wade.  

You would have to be in total denial to think that is not affecting the makeup, tax base, and future of our country.  When I got out of high school in 80 I worked those jobs that Americans "won't" work. That statement is BS.  People fought for them.   They won't work those jobs today, because the wages have been depressed by "competing" against a bunch of illegal aliens, who we carry all the expenses on.

If we hadn't aborted all our children - this tidal wave of illegals would not be tolerated.  Now it is at a point, that, it is undeniable to all but the poster children for denial.

In 1980, 1.4 to 1.5 million babys were aborted.  In the years surrounding it roughly the same number.  These babys had they not been murdered would be entering the working place.  They are in a landfill somewhere rotting away  They would be entering the job market now.

They were replace by Paco who will work for less and spend less and no SSI no taxes.  Who couldn't think that was great?  Only the eighteen y/o black kid trying to get into construction.  BTW the Mexicans run the blacks off with a quickness.

From another source
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http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/tabor/050824

According to statistics from the Centers for Disease Control, the first eleven years of legal abortions in America killed about <B>11.9 million babies</B> (from 1973 to 1983). If those aborted children had lived and grown to adulthood, their median age today would be 30.5 years old.

"Now, the number of estimated illegal immigrants in the U.S.A. ranges from 10.3 million to 15 million; so add these two numbers together and divide by two, and you get about 12.5 million as a pretty close guesstimate of how many illegal workers, mostly Mexican, are now in America.

Is this mere coincidence, or is there some direct correlation between those two numbers, 11.9 million and 12.5 million? I think it is both. Without question, at least part of the reason why we have illegal immigrants crossing our borders in droves is because there is a need for more cheap laborers in the fields and factories of America. It is a simple economic proposition: increased demand creates its own supply."
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All great periods of economic expansion in our country have been accompanied by a surge of immigration to feed it.  We aren't having a great economic expansion now - we are having a contraction of qualified labor because it was inconvenient to the mother to live the results of her actions.  She just murdered her children and we act outraged about what happened above.  It is hypocritical to do that anymore than charge someone with murder for killing an unborn child in a fight.  It (the fetus) is simply not human - right.

Because of this browning of America your children and their children will live a different standard of living.  But hey you got to flush a few away and get that promotion!!! Hope it is worth it to your child's child!

This may be considered ad Hominem but anyone who can't see the effect abortion has had on our society is blind and daft.  Only certain cultures are able to maintain stable livable western civilizations - if thing keep going at this rate we won't be one of them, we will be like Haiti.

And yes you can blame this on abortion - everyting from the quality of students in the schools, to the crime, the depressed wages, and of course the "Atlas Shrugged" mentality that is beginning to permeate our middle class as they work harder with two parents and live lower lifestyles.

Wake up - you can call me a racist - but an extra 40 million white people raised in a public  education system still largely white, might make a wee bit of difference.

But hey I am a narrow minded white male who thinks America is such a $#!tty country that people are streaming in left and right for the jobs they know are there  because their competition is DEAD.  killed by their mothers - it was inconvenient!

We won't get into the God issue.  I don't want you to stroke out.  Let's just say he is not mocked.

East, I do not disagree with you on many of your points, especially that God is not mocked.  I would never refer to HIM as the "God issue."  Please do not worry about "stroking me out."  Not that I really think you are at all concerned.  I do think you need your very own blog where you can just sit and type your opinions away all day and night.  

However, like Gmoney and Static, I asked you one simple question and you failed to address it......not that you have to, but you go on and on and on about abortion and all it has done to drag our country down.....so again I ask, what are YOU doing about it?  It's easy to sit here and type away...but what are YOU doing or what have YOU done to affect change?  I will be more than happy to list (and provide real proof) what I have done.....and some of these may seem like spitting in the wind, but I still operate on the philosophy of saving one baby at a time is worth the effort.  

And heck, I am a liar too...I said I wouldn't let you drag me into this, but here I am!  

mnshadow you have failed to answer any of my questions on this particular issue except for a blanket denial. And as to what I have done - I have campaigned for Pro life candidates, worked phones, and we give a considerable sum (for us anyway) to Birthright.  Also, by the grace of God I have not been involved in any abortions.  As a male, it could have been otherwise, I would have had no "choice" in the matter.

Many women I know have been sucked into having an abortion.  Almost without exception they are sorry about it.

Abortion is largely killing because it is inconvenientto take responsibility for the baby.  That is the truth - in your heart you know it.  When our politicians are protecting partial birth abortion, it is undeniable that it is killing because the baby is inconvenient.

America is changed forever because of the slaughter that has taken place in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.  Go look at Jackson Avenue.  Go to just about any job site. They are here to stay.  After you do that take a little trip to a border town.  Many cities in California are run like them now.  The Federal Government has taken their governments over.

And as to the original story - if you can stab the back of a partially delivered baby's skull and vacuum out its brain legally - how can we condemn this?

Now go answer the many questions I asked ABOVE and you did not answer.  You didn't answer them because it would have proved my point - abortion cheapens life, and is demographically and economically destroying our society.

"We have raised a generation of lazy, slovenly children whose idea of "work" is to have to reach for the remote!  They are too lazy and bored with life to make any kind of effort with much of anything.  They are glued to their televisions and computers and have, for the most part, lost their abilities to even use their imaginations.  They don’t go outside and play, get dirty, make friends….no they isolate themselves and have no sense of community. "
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This we almost totally agree with each other on.  This is the one or two children people have late in their life so they can raise them in their McMansion.  But then again I can't let my children run loose like my parents could.

For that matter, unlike my parents, I can't leave them in the car while I return an item at Walmart or put money in the Salvation Army bucket without being a child abuser.

Well I agree with that.  We would leave the house in the mornings with instructions to "go play."  We came home for lunch and home for dinner.  Our parents didn't worry about us....they knew we were safe in our own neighborhoods.....and if we did something wrong, we "got it" when we got home.  Lord help us if a neighbor "told on us" before we told on ourselves!  But now, especially around here, if I had young children, they wouldn't be outside without me....and I sure wouldn't let them run the neighborhood.  

East Memphis Said:  We won't get into the God issue.  I don't want you to stroke out.  Let's just say he is not mocked.

The horrible and sad thing is that God is mocked every day, all over the world, sometimes by the very people who should be keeping HIS word the most.  Any time we stand by and do nothing, we are guilty.  I will admit that there have been times when I was too afraid or too busy or too worried about just making enough money to put food on the table to stand up for what I know is right.  I try my best to do the right thing, at all times, but I am human, and I fail, sometimes miserably.  But God loves me anyway and HE knows my heart.  

"The horrible and sad thing is that God is mocked every day, all over the world, sometimes by the very people who should be keeping HIS word the most.  Any time we stand by and do nothing, we are guilty.  I will admit that there have been times when I was too afraid or too busy or too worried about just making enough money to put food on the table to stand up for what I know is right.  I try my best to do the right thing, at all times, but I am human, and I fail, sometimes miserably.  But God loves me anyway and HE knows my heart."
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Unlike me ;-) you have a good heart and I know it.  The list of my failings far exceeds the list of my virtues - something I am acutely aware of.

And like you (at least I believe) I look around at people who are in dire straits doing stupid things and say to myself but for the grace of God there go I.  I also see people doing things so animalistic I cannot comprehend it and I lash out in my mind at them.  I know this is a sin. God is in everyone.  But lashing out was the way I was taught.

Everybody has their own demons.  Everybody.

how come it is okay to kill a baby but its not okay to kill a man or woman. i know that the person who did this must be a heartless person. to not even give this child a chance. this person blamed their life an mistakes on this inoccent baby. it hurts to know what kind of system we have going on here...